We recently received an email from a parent with a question. This mom was concerned that in spite of a number of supports, her son was struggling and not doing well. She could see far enough down the road to be fairly certain he was going to fail and she wondered whether failing was the only way he would realize that he needs to use his supports more fully. This mom wants to hold on to the hope that her son will come through – and she asks for some strategies to guide him. In this episode Vicki and Lynn do their best to share some of those strategies – along with some reassurance and hope.
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We are always grateful for email and feedback from listeners. This helps us know what you want to hear more about and what information is most helpful.
We recently received an email from a listener and we knew it was an important topic and would make a good podcast episode. This episode is our response.
Here’s the email from this mom:
“Hi, I listen to your podcast often. I have a freshman in college. He does have ADHD and learning differences. He has a lot of support built in which consist of a tutor at school and online tutor and a ADHD coach. He uses the coach, and sometimes uses the tutors. He also has a learning center and accommodations. My biggest struggle is waiting for him to decide that he needs all the supports and using them. I know it comes with maturity. I’m just wondering if that could be a topic? I’m basically waiting for him to fail so that he can learn that he needs help. He’s in his second semester now and first semester did not go great.”
After Vicki responded and asked what specific information might be helpful, we received a reply:
“Thank you so much for responding. Regarding specific information. I am uncertain. I did listen to one of your past podcasts which was wonderful. It reviewed all the “why” related to students not using supports. ( denial, shame, organization, work initiation…) I am fully aware of the why’s. I am looking for a podcast that digs deeply into the how/ how to guide them towards using the supports. Meaning strategies. I was listening to a podcast from Additude/ADHD experts. It focused on hope. It was great. They discussed that “Hope is the belief that the future will be better than today and that we have the power to change it”. They discussed the fact that, to succeed you need goals, a pathway and willpower. My son has hope. He has goals and willpower but he lacks the pathway sometimes. For sure, his resistance to using the supports seem mostly related to shame. He wants to do it on his own. He doesn’t want to need tutoring/ help. What kind of tools can he used to begin accepting that he needs it? Therapy doesn’t work. Is the answer truly just wait for failure? Group study with kids he can relate with? I am unsure.”
So in this episode Lynn and Vicki tackle the topics of failing and of hope – both powerful qualities. Lynn talked about why it’s not as simple as just asking for help and why asking can be so hard. Vicki talked about maturity, and we both talked about the importance of resilience and a positive attitude – for both student and parent. Finally, Lynn summed it up by suggesting that it’s not so much “waiting to fail” as “waiting for more information.”
We mentioned a few other podcast episodes that you might find helpful. And we add an important book here as well.
#033 – Looking at Failure Differently: A Layered Approach to Building Motivation
#037 – A Discussion About Academic Coaching and Resilience: An Interview with Adina Glickman
#046 – A Story of Hope for Parents of Struggling Students: An Interview with Marie Force
#064 – Supporting Students Who Struggle: Continuing the Conversation with Dr. Lynn Zlotkowski
#097 – Why Do Students Have Trouble Asking for the Help They Need?
We also continually recommend Jessica Lahey’s wonderful book The Gift of Failure. It’s never too late to gather the wisdom included there.
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Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast. Whether your child is just beginning the college admission process or is already in college, this podcast is for you. You’ll find food for thought and information about college and about navigating that delicate balance of guidance, involvement and knowing when to get out of the way. Join your hosts as they share support and a celebration of the amazing experience of having a child in college.
Lynn Abrahams:
Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast. This is the place where we talk about parenting our kids as they prepare for college, as they go through college and even as they leave college. My name is Lynn Abrahams. I haven’t been here in a while and I’m thrilled to be here. (I’m thrilled that you’re here too.) I am the parent of two sons who have been in and around and through college, and I also am a learning disability specialist. I work with college students at a small four-year liberal arts college. So I work with students professionally and I’ve survived some of the parenting parts in terms of a parent. But I am here with my good friend, Vicki Nelson.
Vicki Nelson:
Yes, and Vicki Nelson is very thrilled that you are back here with me.
Vicki Nelson:
My name is Vicki Nelson and I am a professor of Communication at a small liberal arts college Happens to be the same small college that Lynn works at and I am the parent of three daughters and they have all gone to college and they have come out the other side and we have all survived. So, like Lynn, I work with students every day and then I have also parented students through college, and we both bring these double perspectives to whatever we have to talk about.
Lynn Abrahams:
And today is kind of exciting because we are responding to a listener. We had a message from a listener asking us to dig deeper into a particular topic and we were thrilled to do this, because this is part of why we started this to begin with.
Vicki Nelson:
And this is a really important topic too.
Lynn Abrahams:
It’s very important and I think I’m going to let Vicki, I’m going to think I’m going to let you read the email that the parent wrote.
Vicki Nelson:
Okay. So rather than us trying to summarize, there are two emails from this parent. We had a little conversation going on, so we’ll share her story. She says “Hi, I listened to your podcast often. I have a freshman in college. He does have ADHD and learning differences. He has a lot of support built in, which consists of a tutor at school and online tutor and an ADHD coach. He uses the coach and sometimes uses the tutors. He also has a learning center and accommodations.
Vicki Nelson:
My biggest struggle is waiting for him to decide what he needs, to decide that he needs all the supports and using them. I know it comes with maturity. I’m just wondering if that could be a topic. I’m basically waiting for him to fail so that he can learn that he needs help. He’s in his second semester now and the first semester did not go great.” So I responded to this parent about her tough dilemma a few thoughts, and then I said is there any specific information that you’re wishing you could hear more about? So we heard back from her again, which we really appreciate, with a little bit more. So let me share that, because that sets up then what we’re going to talk about. So she says regarding specific information, “I’m uncertain.
Vicki Nelson:
I did listen to one of your past podcasts, which was wonderful. It reviewed all the why related to students not using supports denial, shame, organization work, initiation, et cetera” and I’m going to just editorialize in here for a moment. That was episode 97 on help seeking and why students don’t ask for help. So she goes on. I’m fully aware of the why’s. I’m looking for a podcast that digs deeply into how, how to guide them toward using the supports, meaning strategies.
Vicki Nelson:
I was listening to a podcast from ADDitude with ADHD experts. It focused on hope. It was great. They discussed that and here’s a quote hope is the belief that the future will be better than today and that we have the power to change it. End of quote. They discussed the fact that to succeed you need goals, a pathway and willpower. My son has hope. He has goals and willpower, but he lacks the pathway sometimes For sure, his resistance to using the supports seem mostly related to shame. He wants to do it on his own. He doesn’t want to need tutoring help. What kind of tools can he use to begin to accept that he needs it? Therapy doesn’t work. Is the answer truly just to wait for failure? Group study with kids he can relate to? I’m unsure.” and so that’s what we heard from this parent sharing my favorite definition of hope.
Vicki Nelson:
(It’s a fabulous definition,) and she’s at a loss of seeing this train coming down the track and not being able to do anything about it. So we thought, whether you have a student with learning differences or not, we certainly have all faced that situation. Well, many of us have faced that situation when you just see something coming headed toward your student and you don’t know what to do.
Lynn Abrahams:
So one of my first responses is, first of all, that the student she’s talking about has only been in college for two semesters, so she starts. He started with one semester, he’s in his second. He has a long way to go. So the first thing I would say to the parent is this is the beginning of a process and it’s a process that is going to have lots of ups and downs and ins and outs. So this is the beginning, and also that the idea of reaching out for help is not so simple. It’s not just about reaching for help. It sounds like this student does use some of the help that’s around and I’ve had students, I have to say, who have had tutors and coaches and accommodations and lots and lots of help and still may struggle. So it’s not just about getting the help, but it’s about the ability to accept the help. So it’s the ability to take it in, to use it, to work with it. It’s not just making that appointment. So it is more complicated than just having the supports in place.
Vicki Nelson:
And you know, in her email she mentions maturity. She says, you know, I think I know it’s maturity and I don’t have answers to this, but as I was reading it I was thinking about that word, maturity. And we hope our kids will mature and I began to wonder a little more about how that happens. It’s not just more days or months or years on the calendar. We certainly I think many of us know a lot of adults that we would not necessarily characterize as mature. But you know, how do you get that maturity? Is it just time? And in some cases it is. I mean, we’ve talked a lot, Lynn, I know you’ve talked a lot about executive functioning and how you know the brain just hasn’t necessarily developed until a certain point. And we do have a whole episode on executive functioning that’s 75, if people want to go back to that. But does that maturity come through time and just letting things develop or through a collection of experiences that we have in life, that each experience brings us more information?
Vicki Nelson:
We use the word but I think it helps to think about oh, how do we get that?
Lynn Abrahams:
It sounds like magic. Your kids are going to grow up, but well, how? Yeah. So it’s a big, big, big word, and I do think part of it does have to do with experiences, which is why my first response to this story is that this is the beginning of a long process. You know, a lot of it is trial and error and not necessarily failure, but we’ll talk about that in a little bit. You know, I was thinking also about some positive characteristics that help students become more able to accept help. We often talk about this in terms of negatives, like students don’t go for help because of shame or denial.
Vicki Nelson:
And she mentions shame in her email.
Lynn Abrahams:
Right and that’s very, very real. But in addition to that, there are some positive characteristics that I think kids could work on that could help them receive help. One of them is and it’s kind of a surprising one, but it’s the ability to be flexible. I have a number of students who will get help but will not accept it because they’re kind of rigid about the way they approach things and they’re afraid to try something new.
Lynn Abrahams:
And that characteristic of being flexible is really, really necessary and it’s a good thing to even talk to your kids about. I mean, we as parents, we know our kids and we know I mean I, you know some kids are more flexible and able to try things than others. But if that’s an issue for your kids, you may want to have a conversation about it and even bring in some humor about you know uh-oh new way to do it. You know that kind of thing because flexibility is necessary.
Vicki Nelson:
And that ability to adapt and try something and then perhaps change the way you do it. You gather information and change, so it becomes transformative in a way.
Lynn Abrahams:
Yep being flexible. You know, another characteristic that I think is incredibly important is a positive attitude, which I think of as the ability to imagine being successful, which is similar to the hope definition.
Vicki Nelson:
Yep, yep, that you have the power to change it.
Lynn Abrahams:
And again, I have worked with so many students who’ve been bombarded by their failures by the time they get to college and can’t really imagine that they’re capable and they are.
Lynn Abrahams:
But also that takes some trial. Sometimes, the most exciting thing is when a when a student gets a good grade and says you know, oh my God, I didn’t think I could do that. But that shift in self, you know, idea of who you are, that shift from I don’t usually do well in school to I can do this, I can imagine doing this, and you know. The other idea is that you know being successful can mean many things. I’m thinking of a student right now who um shifted in his first year of college, from coming to school and being a business major because his parents thought he should be a business major to discovering an incredible interest in digital designing and became a digital you know, design major, using it in business situations, but anyways, that shift you know came came from sort of failure, in a sense, from not making it as a business major but then shifting into what was more who he was.
Vicki Nelson:
You know, one of the phrases that I use with my students a lot is see feedback rather than failure. I mean, every time I hand back a test or a quiz or an assignment or something, and there always will be a few students who did not do well, and, and you know they got a low grade and they all they see is that F. And they’re seeing that as a failure. I failed the test, I failed, and, and what I try to encourage them to think about is every time you get something like that back, see that as feedback. What can you learn from this? How are you going to study differently? Or you know whatever? What? What information can you gather from this?
Vicki Nelson:
And I think that’s that’s some of what you’re talking about. You know, the student who comes as one major and finds out that’s not going well and gets a taste of something else. That’s feedback. And and so a student who’s not using the supports that are available and then doesn’t do well may need that experience of not doing well to provide the feedback that, okay, the way I’ve been approaching it doesn’t work.
Lynn Abrahams:
So part of what you’re help., Vicki, is reframing the idea of failure, and that it’s not just failure, it’s, it’s um, it’s thinking about how things are going, um and I. I keep coming back to conversations that parents can have with their kids about how things are going and also some sense of humor about it, um and about their. You know what kind of feedback they’re getting, um, which can feed into some different decisions.
Vicki Nelson:
They need to also think about their own feelings and how they’re handling and how they’re responding, because that can make a difference.
Lynn Abrahams:
When I, when I say positive attitude, I guess I’m also not just talking about the student’s attitude about themselves, but parents’ attitude about their students. You know, they really, to believe in your kids is is a really powerful thing and they feel it and they know it. So, just and it’s more of a general belief, You’re going to find your way.
Vicki Nelson:
And and that’s that goes back to the flexibility. You know the pathway it. and this email from this parent talked about um, her son. You know she said he has, he has the hope and he has the goals, and but he can’t find the pathway, and that that the pathway you’re imagining might not be the pathway. That’s going to be the appropriate pathway. It could be a change of major, it could be a change of program, it could be a change of school, it could be taking a break from school, it could be going in a completely different direction. So so the students need to do that, but the parents need to be ready to do that along with the student.
Lynn Abrahams:
Right. The last. The third thing I want to mention as a positive characteristic is something we talk a lot about, and that’s resilience. Students need to be able to not do well on a test and not feel like the sky’s going to fall in on them, and parents need to know that if a student fails a test, it doesn’t mean the sky’s falling in on them. This is all part of the process. It’s really, really important to be able to make mistakes, and make mistakes and talk about them, um, as a way to move forward.
Vicki Nelson:
I think one way it. It’s a hard conversation.
Vicki Nelson:
I think it can be a hard conversation to have with your students and and one way is is to think about to help the student think about what you do versus who you are. So when you, when you get that f back, where you fail a whole semester or or you’re even Unprobation or dismissed, or you know, getting a test back is a little failure. And then there are the bigger ones, and we’re really every time we see a little one, we’re afraid that the bigger one is coming and the bigger one might be coming and that might be the kind of failure that that it takes. But helping the student separate. You know, okay, you failed and that May have something to do with with what you did or didn’t do or how you approached it, but that’s not who you are.
Vicki Nelson:
So so separating those, those two things, is part of, then, that ability to bounce back and say that Tomorrow can be different from today, and I have some control over making that happen.
Lynn Abrahams:
That’s really a good point. I think we need to take a look at the word failure. Mm-hmm, you know, are we really just waiting for failure? I mean, I’ve had so few students that I really would say I’m waiting For failure so that they can kind of wake up, and that usually comes from pure denial. You know where students deny the fact that they need help, or just deny that you know, or you know they need to be have something big to get them to wake up. That’s unusual, and it sounds like this student is not like that. This student wants to do well, and you know it, it’s not about waiting for failure, it’s waiting for information. Totally different approach. I Also think that in order to take in the information, students need to build their Awareness muscle.
Lynn Abrahams:
(what a good term) and that’s where parents can help by having conversations with their kids to build your awareness is. You know we can talk to our kids about you know what? What class is your favorite? Why do you like a class? Why do you dislike a class? What do you need in a professor? What helps you? What doesn’t help you? What kind of tests do you do well on? What kind of tests do you not do well on? It’s building awareness is a way to pull, pull in that information.
Vicki Nelson:
So it’s really helping students be a little more analytical about about the situation, not as I failed, but okay, let’s break it apart. Let’s what are. What are the pieces? You know? Does it have to do with how much time you’re studying, or how you’re studying, or whether you’re getting help, or whether it’s your social life, or you know just?
Lynn Abrahams:
And you know to be analytical, you have to detach a little bit. Y ou have to step back. So part of what our students are learning is how to be less judgmental, less negative, less emotional, even right and step back and look at it more as a puzzle and analyze it a little bit and that’s where we can help our kids. You know, come.
Vicki Nelson:
And take one step at a time. You may not be able to fix everything, but if you can just do one thing and then do the next thing, and then do the next thing.
Lynn Abrahams:
Teeny steps, always. So I think that I think we’re not waiting for failure, we’re waiting for a gathering of information.
Vicki Nelson:
And we can help the student figure out how to do that, that piece. (and actually even the word failure is so negative loaded, so emotionally loaded. You want to stay away from words like that,) yeah, and and that’s where I think, also examining your own role as parent, and I think we we’re going to talk a little bit about that before we’re done, but you know, recognizing even if we do feel like we’re waiting for the crash.
Vicki Nelson:
That it’s not necessarily our job to prevent it and I think that goes against everything we’ve been taught and experienced as parents, that our job is to keep our kids safe. You know, there’s a reason we get that moniker of being snow plow parents a little bit that that sometimes, for every good reason, every good intention, we try to prevent our students from crashing.
Lynn Abrahams:
I think we’re bio. I think it’s a biological thing.
Announcer:
Lynn Abrahams:
I think we’re wired to try to protect our kids and what happens is, once they start Wednesday, leave or go to college or move out, or you know. It’s our opportunity to change, to be aware of that, our urge.
Vicki Nelson:
You know, what comes to mind is maybe a stretch, but I have a grandson who’s about nine and ayear or so ago he, he, was into skateboarding. I want to skateboard, I want to, you know, do all of this and of course you know when you’re doing that you fall off a lot. And Well, what his parents did was they didn’t say, no, you can’t go skateboarding because you’re, you know, you make it hurt, you may fall off. They made sure he had a really good helmet. He had those elbow pads, he had the knee pads, and then they say go for it. So they kind of helped him understand that if he was going to do this thing, it was going to be important that he wear the helmet and wear the arm pads and the knee pads and long pants and everything else, and
Lynn Abrahams:
then, let him go.
Vicki Nelson:
And then they let him go and he fell off a lot, but he didn’t scrape up his whole legs or crack his head open. (And I think because the parents did that, they could feel less anxious), oh, absolutely, and say well, we’ll be, we’ll be, Let him go Within reason they didn’t take him to the top of the highest hill and say have a good ride down. But yes, Right.
Lynn Abrahams:
You know, another thing that I thought about in reading this email is the idea of asking for help, and I know we’ve spent some time I think we do have a podcast about asking for help and why students don’t.
Vicki Nelson:
90, no, episode 97 is all about why students don’t ask for help and this parent says she’s listened to that, so she’s. Ok with the whys, but we want to touch on it for people who might not as much.
Lynn Abrahams:
And well, also even with the whys, I just I have to say who does want to ask for help. I mean, it’s not like it’s an easy thing to do, or you want to do it, or. One suggestion I have just to begin with is to think about ourselves and our own ability to ask for help or not, and talk to our kids about some of those experiences. Talk to our kids about situations that we’ve encountered where we got to the point where if we didn’t ask for help, we were going nowhere and it was the important next step asking for help.
Vicki Nelson:
And I think talking to them about- we see every day on campus – they want to be independent. As students that’s the big thing when they come to college. I’m going to be independent, but that independence doesn’t mean you have to do everything totally on your own. Being independent means it’s up to you to decide. No one is going to tell you, but it’s up to you to decide when you need help and what kind of help you need and when you’re going to use it. But you don’t have to do everything totally on your own.
Lynn Abrahams:
We do live in a culture where I think of the American culture as talking a lot about strength means doing it on your own. Weakness is asking others for help, and it’s not a bad idea to have conversations with your kids about this culture. And is it really a good method, a good way to operate? I think it’s good to talk about your own family and whether the family culture highlights independence as a strength. Or is the family culture more competitive or compassionate? Or do you focus in your family on needing other people or not needing other people?
Lynn Abrahams:
It’s a good family discussion, I have to say to have about this whole concept, which is again more complicated than just asking for help.
Vicki Nelson:
It’s what you’re talking about is really important. It can be helpful, but it takes some work on the point of view of the parents as well To really as you’re talking. My kids are out of the house now, but I’m trying to remember back to when they were home. I don’t know how I would describe our family culture.
Vicki Nelson:
I mean, it really takes some self-analysis on the part of parents too to think about how they’re talking to their kids and encouraging their kids and all of those sort of things. Another thing that occurs to me would be possibly to just again in casual conversations to think about some of the role models students have who may seek help. What comes to mind is athletes. You think about some of the top athletes and they talk about how they rely on their coaches. They talk about their personal trainer. They talk about the psychologists that helps them get the mindset. If students start to look around them and really think about it, all kinds of people that they encounter or that they look up to probably are getting help from other people. We talk a lot in terms of business and getting jobs and things about networking and making the connections with people who can help you so help you know. It’s also thinking about what help means.
Lynn Abrahams:
And that this is something that adults do, and adults do because they believe in whatever themselves. They believe in becoming better athletes or becoming better artists, or, you know, you do reach out to people. That’s part of it. I think one of the things that seems to come up in talking about this is this idea of stepping back to look at how we behave, you know, to having that conversation about your family culture, or, you know, I think of you know what do you do when you’re waiting for your kids. You know to grow up. You know what are the best ways to do that. And I keep coming back to this idea of stepping back, that we’re not stepping forward to fix things as parents anymore.
Vicki Nelson:
We’re stepping back nd sometimes, if we step back a little bit, I think, moving to the sidelines we talk a lot about from caretaking to coaching and you move to the sidelines. You have a better perspective. If you’re too close to something, you really can’t see the whole picture, and so sometimes, yeah, that stepping back is not just waiting, but backing up a little bit so that you’re.
Lynn Abrahams:
Yeah, there’s an active component to this too. You step back and then take care. You know parents need to take care of themselves and model that kind of living so that our kids can take care of themselves, you know. So we’re modeling, we’re sort of parallel living and then talking about it but stepping back and sort of detaching a little bit, being less emotional about it and sort of a gentle separation with compassion.
Vicki Nelson:
Yeah, you know, I just came back a little while ago from a conference and I think our last episode. Sarah Shane and I did an episode on some of the themes we brought home from that conference and one of the things that I heard them talk about and the phrase stuck with me is what they called compassionate detachment. You know, with compassion detaching a little bit, and basically, as they were talking about it, they were saying it means saying I’ve done all I can. Now it’s up to you. You know, I’ve, I’m, but with compassion it’s not. You know, okay, you’re on your own, that’s it. I wash my hands of you, no, but just, I think it’s what you’re talking about.
Vicki Nelson:
That step back and it broadens the perspective. And I think the other thing that can happen when you do that is and you can help your student to to look for the successes, because you start to get caught up in this. You know, I failed this test, I failed this quiz, I failed this, this. Things are going well, I got this grade. I’m not.
Vicki Nelson:
You know you’re not using the tutors, you’re not using, but what, what, what, what are you doi? What, what, what have been the successes? And they might be really, really small. They might be big but they might be really, really small. But starting to focus in on those, that’s that positive attitude that you’re talking about and that sometimes, as we’re thinking about that, and maybe you know, it may be that for a parent saying I can’t find any success, I can’t think of any successes, it’s all been, you know, bad, bad, bad, that, sometimes si. Yeah, how do you define success? And that sometimes success means just progress. Yes, you’ve come, you’ve come from there to here. Okay, it feels like a baby step, but, boy, that’s a forward moving thing. And so really stepping back and looking for and thinking about successes and then helping your student do that same thing and and let the, you know, using the resources and all, let that kind of go for the moment and and focus on the other, the other things, and have those conversations.
Lynn Abrahams:
And this parent wrote about her son, saying that he did want to do well that he that he, you know, did use some of the supports, and so one of my responses is that facing the right direction is the biggest thing. You know not necessarily what exactly the student is doing, but if they’re facing the right direction, like facing towards doing better, you know, like a sunflower, you know it’s really important yeah.
Announcer:
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Vicki Nelson:
I think that I think that is the perfect note to sort of end on. You know, I hope this is helpful.
Lynn Abrahams:
I hope we did a little bit of a deeper dive.
Vicki Nelson:
I hope it’s helpful to this parent who wrote in, and we’re really grateful to her for doing that. But leaving it on that note of I love your expression, ynn of you know you’re facing in the right direction and and then at least, even if they’re baby steps, you know they’re going to be getting you toward the goal and with that flexibility you talked about earlier, of you know making that the pathway may not be the pathway you imagined, may not be the pathway the student imagined, but you’re taking baby steps. And then maybe there’s a curve in the road. You know Robert Frost and two roads diverge.
Vicki Nelson:
And maybe you decide to take a different road and that can be, you know, a change of, a change of direction. Surprise, but it can be a conscious change and really thinking about that. We really want to support our students. We want to do everything we can. We need to know there’s a point at which we have done what we can and we need to help, guide and and be there.
Lynn Abrahams:
I think being what matters e on the sidelines and believe in them.
Vicki Nelson:
Yeah.
Lynn Abrahams:
Yeah.
Vicki Nelson:
So we’re all believing in our kids.
Vicki Nelson:
And we really thank you for being with us. If you have made it to the end of this podcast and we hope it’s it’s helpful and a reminder to all of us, even if our kids are doing well, that you know that, stepping back and helping them analyze and think about and build, build on what they are doing well and and go from there. So thank you for joining us and we will put some of the earlier episodes, links to the earlier episodes and some other materials that might be helpful in the show notes, which is college parent central dot com slash podcast and that will take you to the list of all of our episodes and you can find this and that will. Then you can get to the show notes and hopefully transcript as well if you’ve missed something and you want to just go back and see something. So thank you for being with us and until next time, see you later.
